Interview Transcript:

David Ferguson

My guest today is Dr. Emery N. Brown. Thanks for joining me today. It is so good to hear from you. Just briefly, I'll inform my audience about you. Dr. Emery Brown is the Edward Hood Professor of Medical Engineering and Computational Neuroscience at Massachusetts Institute of Technology;

 

 

David Ferguson:

The Warren M. Zapol professor of Anesthesia at Harvard Medical School , and a practicing anesthesiologist at Massachusetts General Hospital. Dr. Brown received his B.A. ( Magnum Cum Laude) in Applied Mathematics from Harvard College, his M.A. and Ph.D. in statistics from Harvard University and his M.D. magna cum laude from Harvard Medical School.

 

 

David Ferguson:

Dr. Brown is an anesthesiologist-statistician whose experimental research has made important contributions towards understanding the neuroscience of how anesthetics act in the brain during the state of general anesthesia. In his statistics research he has developed signal processing algorithms to solve important data analysis challenges in neuroscience.

 

 

David Ferguson:

His research has been featured on National Public Radio , in Scientific American, Technology Review of The New York Times , and "Ted" Med 2014. He serves as a Co-director of the Harvard and MIT Health Sciences and Technology Program, Associate director of the Institute for Medical Engineering and Science at the MIT, and Investigator for The Picower Center for Learning and Memory.

 

 

David Ferguson:

Department of Brain and Cognitive Science , at MIT. He is a Fellow of the Institute of Mathematical Statistics, a Fellow of the National Academy of Inventors, a Member of the National Academy of Engineering, a Member of the National Academy of Sciences, and a member of the National Academy of Medicine.

 

 

David Ferguson:

In 2007, he was given the NIH's Director's Pioneer Award . He is also a member of the Association of University Anesthesiologists. These are just a few of his numerous accomplishments .A very distinguished scientist. Please welcome Dr. Emery Brown.

 

David Ferguson:

Thanks Dr. Brown, for joining me, today . It is so good to have a distinguished scientist , such as you, on this podcast. So, Dr. Brown, what have been your long standing interest in the field of science? Can you just discuss some of those?

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

Well, I think they varied over time. I think that probably my strongest interest in science began in college when I got interested in statistics. So being a statistician, developing statistical methods and algorithms that people could really use to analyze data became an early interest of mine.

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

And that's something which I pursued throughout my career, first working on studying outcomes from surgery as an undergraduate, then later studying circadian rhythms during my Ph.D. work OK. After that, looking at developing ideas in general for neuroscience data analysis or looking at neural spike trains, we're looking at EEG, our local field potentials and these sorts of things.

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

And then from there, my interest developed into trying to understand anesthesia. So I'd say those are probably the. The principal focus areas, those statistics and then statistics applied to neuroscience and then anesthesiology, mechanisms of general anesthesia.

 

David Ferguson:

So I think by any standard of measurement, or most standards of measurement , most people will say you have been a successful academician, you have achieved your Ph.D. from Harvard, your M.D. from Harvard, M.A. from Harvard, B.A. from Harvard. You've won numerous prizes.

 

 

David Ferguson:

You're part of many societies : the National Academy of Inventors, National Academy of Science, the National Academy of Engineering, the National Academy of Medicine. So how do you maintain view of the bigger picture in your career and in your life in general?

 

 

David Ferguson:

How are you doing that?

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

And so when you say the bigger picture you're referring to.

 

David Ferguson:

Academically and also personally, how do you maintain view of the bigger picture in terms of the overarching goals that you have set , your mission statement , and your vision for your life?

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

Well, I think that one of the things that I have tried to do is try to work on an important question. OK. And what you find out with important questions is you can't solve them in five minutes. So that necessarily creates like a long trajectory.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

So, for example, the problem of thinking on how does anesthesia work? That's something which has been a question for now , this coming year 175 years. And so, picking apart, picking part of that , and going after it, you know, it's something which is going to be it's a challenging question.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

And if you're able to solve it, it's going to have broad implications not only for taking care of patients, but also for neuroscience in general, in science in general. So that's the sort of things I tried to work on, like picking important questions, so as another illustration and thinking about circadian rhythms, the circadian rhythms are everywhere.

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

They control our daily function. So the more we able to accurately quantify how they get their properties again, it has broad implications. So I guess the two sentence summary would be picking important questions and pursuing those important questions.

 

David Ferguson:

Okay. Yeah, that's good. That's good. So in what specific ways for the layman, have you been adaptive and creative in the field of science? What specific ways? I know you work with anesthesia. I know you've been a statistician.

 

David Ferguson:

What specific ways have you added your flair to those fields?

 

Dr. Emery Brown: 

Well, I think that if we start with like the circadian rhythms, I think right there was the main thing that I did was looking at the data that were being recorded at those time, like looking at core temperature rhythms ,to track the circadian system, in patients or in study subjects.

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

I worked to give an accurate description of those of those oscillations. So trying to make the model capture the structure of data as accurately as possible . And using what we call harmonic regression techniques to do that, but then not just stopping there, but developing the full inference framework.

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

So you can actually, you can measure the aspects of the rhythm, say the period, the amplitude and then from there, be able to make statements of uncertainty about, you know, how confident we were about the characterizations that we came up with.

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

Well, so that allows you to have an inference framework and then going on to some of the other work, like looking at neuroscience data. . The same idea in principle, but there is the key concept there that I was able to take advantage of and use , and I've continued to use throughout my career.

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

And that is. Neuroscience data, because the rate you're recording from the brain and central nervous system is dynamic, it changes over time. And you need statistical methods that also capture those changes over time, for it to be accurate. And so those were things that I was practiced in ,in that I learned as part of my Ph.D. training.

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

So whereas most of the methods that were being used are static. And so. So then it becomes like a clue is to really use them. So by starting from a frame, where we already had methods that were dynamic.

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

That capture phenomenon change over time, I was able to develop more accurate descriptions of those sorts of data as well. So in other words, really understanding the properties of the data and really what the essential elements of the problem are.

Dr. Emery Brown:

I think that's some of the things I've tried to focus on and that's yielded me some, you know, some measure of success today.

 

David Ferguson:

Yeah, I would say so too. It did. So how have you sort of found the right environment for you to thrive scientifically and intellectually? I think a lot of people aim or aspire, to be an institution such as Harvard and other institutions as well.

 

David Ferguson:

So how did you find how did you know that was the right environment for you to thrive in scientifically and intellectually?

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

Well, I can't say that I knew it. I mean, I think I was just like any other students, starting off at Harvard. You know, really, in many respects, impressed by what the institution had to offer. But then once I was there , then saying, Well, I really have to take advantage of this, and I remember specifically that when I

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

was when I was a junior and I was thinking about what I wanted to do for my senior, my research, the senior thesis. Ken Wakter, who was a professor in the Statistics department at the time, said, Well, since you think about going to medical school, you should probably write a thesis , an undergraduate thesis on a

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

medical topic. And he suggested that I go and talk with Professor Fred Mosteller about that particular issue, and ended up developing a research project with him because he was a statistician who was working on studying outcomes from surgery.

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

And this would be a good idea for me to join a project like that. So that's what I did. So I guess the key thing was realizing that. What sort of opportunities were there at Harvard and then taking advantage of them because you could certainly be there and not take advantage of opportunities that were there.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

That's true. I think one of the real things that I think it was the case at the time, I think it still continues to be the case. The opportunity to write a senior thesis with a leading scholar area is something which was it was amazing and beneficial for me for the long term.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

I had to watch up close and personal how, you know, one of the top statisticians in the world did research. I got to see how he thought, how he interacted with other scientists, and with physicians. And it was very helpful for me to think about the sort of scientists, in my case, also a physician and

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

I wanted to be and the way I'd like to be able to do research and being very specific. One thing about Professor Mosteller was that he could work with anybody, you could work with the best statistician at the top physicians, graduate students, post-docs, but you could also work with undergraduates like me.

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

And so having that, just basically seeing that and I can honestly say they're trying to emulate.

 

 

 

David Ferguson:

Oh, well, that's good. Certainly good. So. You speak about your desire to attend medical school in your junior year. So how did you delineate or decide between M.D., Ph.D. or M.D.? Well, I think that's a challenge a lot of people encounter.

 

David Ferguson:

How did you differentiate between M.D., Ph.D. or M.D.?

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

Well, I think what happened was , is I knew when I came to college, I wanted to go to medical school. That was for sure. And I can't remember exactly whether it was in my sophomore year or earlier, but I decided I wanted to do a Ph.D. also.

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

And I to once I really fell in love with statistics, which is between sophomore and junior year, I decided I wanted to do my Ph.D. in statistics because I just liked, the , I really statistics. It was just a very powerful paradigm and very powerful frame.

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

It was and still is. And I just wanted to master that and I thought that. But I also wanted to be a physician. And I thought, as opposed to just compromising and doing one or the other, why not do both?

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

And that was how I just made the decision. This was a fairly avant-garde idea at the time, because when I entered the Harvard M.D./ Ph.D. program, nobody had done a PhD in statistics before, and that was a rather new idea.

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

There was a new idea there, but also in other programs in the country because , people looked at me as a little surprised when I meant when I said, that's what I wanted to do, my PhD in.

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

But it was very clear to me that medicine was a field that had a lot of uncertainty, a lot of data and even more now. And having people who are formally trained and how to quantify that uncertainty, make decisions on uncertainty ,just seem like a natural path.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

And that's why I just decided to do .

 

David Ferguson:

Yeah, that's good. That's good. So given all your responsibilities and accomplishments, Dr. Brown, how do you maintain a balanced life or how you or you strive to maintain balance?

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

Well, it's. You know, I think family is first, there's no question about that. And, you know, the accomplishments are basically no fun. And they have they have no luster. You know, if your family is well taken care of your family isn't happy.

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

So, you know, we spend a lot of time on, you know, downtime on the weekends vacationing, you know, during the summer , spring, when the kids were in , when the kids were younger and sort of making sure, we took vacations during the four seasons.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

And my wife, like me, likes to travel. So we and very often if I have trips to various places to give lectures, we turn them into sort of family outings also.

 

David Ferguson:

OK.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

So by doing that, it's made it possible to pursue activities that are relevant to my career, but also to make sure that, you know, I'm not losing sight of my family.

 

David Ferguson:

Yeah, that's a big priority. So having priorities they do compliment, to maintaining balance. So what would you attribute your success as a pioneer in the field Dr. Brown? What would you attribute? What characteristic?

 

David Ferguson:

Was it your upbringing as a child? Was it your time at Harvard? Or was it your belief system? Or your perspective on life? What would you say has complimented to your success as a pioneer in the field? Would it be mentorship?

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

I think that, my parents and my family deserve tremendous credit for sort of setting me on the right track. And so, for example, in both of my parents were teachers, they felt that education was very important.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

Anytime , I wanted to do something or pursue something, they were always behind me. And then my brothers we're always very, very good in school also, so people would always say, well, you're going to be as good as your brother, and those sort of things also created a certain amount of incentive.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

But not only my brothers but with my cousins, too. They were also very good in school and so, so in other words, there were these , a number of like, sort of role models around which I don't think we used that term then, but we can think of in that way.

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

But there are people who wanted to be like, So now the call models, right? Okay. But one of my cousins, Robert Brown, who went to Carnegie Mellon, was a star basketball player, honors student, and he was always sitting around reading books during the summer.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

I mean, I'm just so I mean, that's the image that I had of him. You know that I had one of my cousins who was, you know, who? What was when we were kids was teaching us lines from HMS Pinafore, that sort of thing.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

And so the idea so being smart was cool. Essentially, that's that was it. I think I can really remember that idea like that. You know, the smarter you were in this environment and around our family kind of like, you know, the cooler you were.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

And so I think that kind of instilled a me, for example, like my. My oldest brother is a very good writer, and my middle brother was a physicist or just retired physicist now. So again, it didn't seem like that at the time, but they were implicitly setting bars for me to try to jump over just by

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

what they were doing, by example. So I think that I think those, I think those are the origins and then then realizing once you had opportunities, you took advantage of them. Yeah. Then you have some serendipity. You have some people who realize that you have potential and they try to help you realize that, like my teacher

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

at Exeter, who spoke five languages. And so I wanted to be like,, you know, try to be as proficient in as many languages he was or, for example, when I was at, when I was an undergraduate at Harvard, one of the anesthesiologists there, Dr. Jack McPeak, took an interest in me.

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

He was one of my thesis advisors. And he's the first person who took me in the operating room. And then several years later, when I started going to anesthesiology, I was able to turn to him and get advice, and he helped me arrange to take

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

a rotation in anesthesiology and decided that that's what I wanted to go into. So in addition to. So, so then so it's a number of things, it's not just any one thing. So some might say some young. Some early on, some folks that I really looked up to later on, some folks who, realizing and acknowledging my potential

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

help me out. And I was very grateful for that.

  

David Ferguson:

Wow, that's powerful. Yeah. So you put in for my understanding, it seems like you grew up in a culture of excellence. Of course, I'm sure there were things that could have been improved on, but you said you grew up in an environment where it seems like everyone was pursuing excellence.

David Ferguson:

What would you say? Would you say it was your parents or their brothers and sisters that contributed to that?

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

Oh, yeah, yeah, for example. Yeah, like so my mother's family, my mother's family grew up in Pittsburgh and the. My mother and her older sister, so that my mother is one of seven children, and so she was the second oldest and her sister was extremely smart.

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

You know, her older sister, my mother was extremely smart. She graduated from high school and she was 16. Well, I remember my uncle, who is the next one in line. The third one was saying, This is your mother and aunt and you and made it hard for me because they had done so

  

Dr. Emery Brown:

well in school. I had to do well to, you know, that sort of thing. Okay. And you know, on the other hand, my father was very industrious. I mean, he was someone who was orphaned when he was 14. He and his brother had lost both his parents.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

They were raised by their grandfather, but they had someone who by his grandfather, my great grandfather, was this amazing guy. He was a minister, but he was also a gentleman farmer, and he owned this very large parcel of land there and in Florida where I grew up, which we still own today.

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

And that he was an amazingly industrious person. And I know that rubbed off on my father because my father was always doing stuff both for the family, but also for the community. He was very committed to his community.

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

So I think that, in fact, I know that. You know, I inherited that that perspective, you know, those goals, those sorts of. That sort of , can do attitude that my father always had. I'll just give you one example.

 

 

David Ferguson:

I'm here to listen.

Dr. Emery Brown:

At the time my father's grandfather wanted him to move back to Florida because after he got married, they lived in New York and in Pittsburgh. And he wanted him to move back because he wanted somebody living on their property, so my father decided to build a house.

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

So this is in the 1957, 1958. And as you can imagine, my father couldn't get a loan from the bank to build a house. And as we know, one of the most important things entering into the into the American dream is to be able to build a house and, you know, lay down roots, right?

 

David Ferguson:

Yes, I agree.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

So I didn't know this until many years later. He actually borrowed money from the auto-body shop to build a house. He couldn't get a loan from the bank.

 

David Ferguson:

Wow.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

And I remember when we paid off the note, I was in about , ten or eleven at the time and I didn't quite understand everything that was going on,

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

, but I suddenly figured out what had happened. But the thing was, is that because the conventional means that most Americans would have used to build a house, getting a loan from the bank and doing that wasn't available to him.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

He had to come up with another strategy that would work, and he did . And so I think about that now. I mean, think about if you've not been able to do that. Where would I, you know, where would I be now if he hadn't done that?

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

But then taking from that, realizing that if people put obstacles in your way, you have to, you have to out-think them. Yeah. I mean, and I see myself do that like on a number of occasions, but I mean, that was probably one of the most concrete examples because the people at the bank couldn't

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

believe that an African-American who want to build like a real house, like a stolid. You know, three bedroom, two and a half bathroom, you know, living room floor around, you know, a side porch house where they figured we'd just have some idea of like, a little shanty or something like that.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

But that was that was far from what my father imagined because he had studied industrial arts in college. So he knew how to build things. His brother and his uncles, they actually built the house .

 

 

David Ferguson:

Wow , that's good. Yeah, yeah, well, I'm learning a lot, Dr. Brown. So how have you maintained vision and teamwork in your environment, in your lab, in your workspace, in Mass General ? How do you maintain vision and teamwork? How do you make sure that everyone's collaborating , seeing the big picture, and trying to answer those important questions that

 

 

David Ferguson:

you mentioned?

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

I think, I think there are two things. I think one ,that you look for. for cool problems and you get people excited about your problems. I think that's the starting point. And then, you know, you, you let people loose, and let them use their creativity to start working , and guide them.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

But this is what I like to. I like to guide people to help them solve problems and then pitch in , when they need my help, to help them to develop their creative capacities and know bring them to bear on a problem.

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

I think that that's probably the most important thing and also making it fun. I mean, you know, I feel like in many regards now I'm more a cheerleader, anything else. I'm not so much the person doing the work.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

I'm just there, right? Or, you know? Yeah, I think we've gone in and offering suggestions and making sure people aren't getting stuck. And I think that's probably the main thing I do and I can honestly say it's fun.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

It's fun working with. It's watching people who are, you know, many years, my junior, master concepts that I didn't master until I was like maybe 20 years older than they were like, Wow, they know this stuff already. You can only imagine what they can do or they'll be able to do, you know, going on into the

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

future. And so just sitting there marveling at that and trying to facilitate that is a real pleasure. And I, I try to keep that going on a day to day basis.

 

David Ferguson:

Meanwhile, so as we start to wrap up, you mentioned how being smart was cool, I can be wrong with this. However, I'm not sure that's the prevailing message in many instances or in many circles. So what would you say could compliment to changing that dynamic?

 

 

David Ferguson:

Well, it's not just the athletic environments that have a lot of attraction to them for young people, but academic environments as well. How can we make that a more prevailing message? Intellectual curiosity and intellectual development is worth the time and effort.

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

Yeah, I mean, I think we really have to. I mean, I'm clearly biased because I mean, I'm an academic and in science, and I know that people should know about things in science and those sorts of things. But I think that, you know, I'm indebted to you for taking time to talk to somebody like me, to allow

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

me to tell my story

 

David Ferguson:

Oh wow.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

because you know, it's. You know what, it's more exciting to know to hear about Jayson Tatum having scored 50 points and won the game for the Celtics .

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

You know, so and that's just the reality.

 

David Ferguson :

That's true.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

However, you know, being able to like, for example. I have three after my father, I have like three heroes, additional heroes and mathematics. one Benjamin Banneker, the black mathematician from  DC. He was the first person to really characterize the cycles of this circadia,  the insects which come out every 17 years.

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

So he was really and he did this over something like four or five cycles. So he started when he was 17, OK? And so he was probably the country's first data scientist, when you think about it. Or another person is Katherine Johnson, I learned about her, I was just like, blown away.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

Basically, the woman mathematician, African-American woman mathematician who worked out the flight trajectories for the early Mercury and I think also Gemini space missions. Hmm. I mean, just think about it. She did the calculations by hand.

 

 

David Ferguson:

Well, that's true.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

I mean, that's just like unreal. And the third person actually had the good fortune to meet David Blackwell, who is an African-American professor at Berkeley, University of California, Berkeley, professor of statistics. I mean, just like an amazing mind soft-spoken, just totally expected because he was just so, so brilliant.

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

The first African-American elected to the National Academy of Sciences in 1964 so well, 100 years after the academy was actually set up, the first African-American elected he was. It was he. And so, you know, I think about people like that and saying, Gosh, if I can be anything like those guys, you know, so I, you know, clearly

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

the accomplishments of LeBron James or Magic Johnson are the things that are often talked about, but like in my field, you know, I see somebody like these people and they're like my, they're my heroes and those are the people I aspire to be like.

 

 

David Ferguson:

Wow, that's good. So as we conclude. Do you have any advice to those wanting to pursue the field you are currently working in? So budding scientists? What advice would you give to those wanting to pursue the field you are currently working, whether it be statistics or medicine or just a Ph.D. in general?

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

I think they try to get involved and gain and experience early. I can tell you, I get letters almost every day from students asking to come and work in my group literally and have different age all the way from junior high school, you know, up through, you know, high school college postdocs.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

And I'm amazed with some of these students have told me they already know some of them are from the United States. Some are not. They're from outside, from basically effectively the four corners of the Earth. And so but realizing that that's what people do and not being bashful about doing that, and if the first time you

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

write something you don't hear from now because deal, keep going if you want to.

 

David Ferguson:

Right.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

Because it's,  you're trying to create because all you need is one opportunity to sort of get your foot in the door. Once you have that and you realize the other opportunities will open up, you can see that this is something that students from a number of different backgrounds are actually doing now.

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

And I think that students in general, particularly perhaps underrepresented minority students, are free to take the same, the same approach.

 

 

David Ferguson:

I agree. Completely agree. So what has been some of the most beneficial advice you are received Dr. Brown, as we conclude? What was the most beneficial advice or piece of advice you receive from your parents, as you mentioned, they were very industrious and intelligent, even from your colleagues or professors.

 

David Ferguson:

What was some of the most beneficial advice?

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

Those who were the most I mean, I think a number of things I think, you know, just in watching like my parents, you know, just like working hard and also but then encouraging intellectual pursuits, you know? And I think I certainly,

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

have picked up on that and try to amplify that. I just remember my mother saying at one point I told you she was extremely smart. You know she was. It was very clear she live vicariously through us. You know, the things we were able to accomplish, you know, not only me, but my brothers as well.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

And one point is the more candid moments, she said, You know, if I had opportunities, I'm sure I could have been a lot more than I am now.

 

David Ferguson:

Yeah, I've heard that same sentiment.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

That as well. I mean, that kind of stuck with me and just sort of said, Well, you know, I have an obligation to try to be as successful as I possibly can because my mother made it possible for me to get to where I am now, and she sacrificed a lot for me to be where I am.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

And I should, you know, I should basically do the same thing. Then a compliment to a complimentary ideas. I just remember my uncle saying once that, you know, it never hurts to be nice.

 

 

David Ferguson:

Yes I agree.

 

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

And so if you can help somebody win them just the right, just that simple, not deep, just and you can take on many forms. It can just be. Meeting someone on the street to helping someone with their career, so I think some somewhere in there, some of the best advice I've received there, probably other things, but

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

they don't come to mind right now.

 

David Ferguson:

That's fair. That's fair. Well, Dr. Brown, thank you so much for joining me today. It was good to have you on.

 

Dr. Emery Brown:

Thank you very much for having me, David. I really appreciate it.

—-

This interview was initially recorded in 2021 on “The New Chemist’s Podcast”